Calling all kosher kitchen construction experts
[Originally published 1:00 PM, Thursday, April 11, 2013. I'm keeping this post on top for a while, in the hope of getting further responses. Thanks in advance. Newer posts are below.]
We're in the process of planning a kitchen renovation, and could certainly use ideas and advice.
For instance, I gather that granite has kashrut advantages, but I don't know exactly why. How does one kasher granite countertops for Pesach/Passover, for example? Some of my readers may have experience with this procedure, and/or other information about granite and kashrut. I've love to hear it.
Any recommendations for appliances? We'll need a new stove and dishwasher. Star-K Certified Appliances is pretty dry reading. :) I'd certainly appreciate it if those of you who have more direct experience with Shabbat (Sabbath) and Yom Tov (major holiday) usage of "Sabbath-mode" appliances would chime in. Please keep in mind that we talking about a small apartment kitchen being operated by two "kitchen klutzes," so skip the huge stoves and fancy gourmet or restaurant-appropriate gear, please.
Rav todot--many thanks!
We're in the process of planning a kitchen renovation, and could certainly use ideas and advice.
For instance, I gather that granite has kashrut advantages, but I don't know exactly why. How does one kasher granite countertops for Pesach/Passover, for example? Some of my readers may have experience with this procedure, and/or other information about granite and kashrut. I've love to hear it.
Any recommendations for appliances? We'll need a new stove and dishwasher. Star-K Certified Appliances is pretty dry reading. :) I'd certainly appreciate it if those of you who have more direct experience with Shabbat (Sabbath) and Yom Tov (major holiday) usage of "Sabbath-mode" appliances would chime in. Please keep in mind that we talking about a small apartment kitchen being operated by two "kitchen klutzes," so skip the huge stoves and fancy gourmet or restaurant-appropriate gear, please.
Rav todot--many thanks!
posted by Shira Salamone at 1:00 PM
62 Comments:
Ovens: Good shabbat mode ovens should properly be called Yom Tov ovens, IMO. The simplest form of Shabbos mode simply overrides the (legally required) automatic 12 hour shutoff. Good shabbat mode ovens also turn off any electrical displays while allowing you to change the temperature(*). My mom has an oven like that that includes a dial to control the temperature. That is ideal. We have a digital input pad which in Yom Tov mode doesn't show you what the temperature is presently set for, or what you've just changed it to. Opportunities for hilarity abound, although to date we haven't generated any good stories. We paid $75 extra for a warming drawer, only to discover that the warming drawer doesn't work in Shabbat mode. Caveat emptor.
We use differently colored handles to differentiate between diary, meat, and pareve drawers and cabinets.
Our island has one curved edge that projects out past the cabinet underneath so we can sit down while cutting vegetables etc. on the island.
We found the rules for kashering granite to be difficult to follow, and different rabbis had different rules. We use silestone, which the CRC says is kasherable but the Star K says is not, and the OU says CYLOR. We also find Silestone is amazingly easy to clean- it doesn't absorb everything so unless we leave something there for a week it comes up easily with a damp paper towel. 7 years later we still have no permanent stains.
In recent years we've decided covering everything is easier than kashering the countertops anyway.
I think Shabbos mode refrigerators are a rip-off, but I may just be old.
Um, CYLOR translation: Consult your local Orthodox rabbi?
Wow, thanks for the tip about silestone. I'd never heard of it, much was I aware of the advantages of silestone over granite. Having a countertop that's stain-resistant is a major consideration, especially since I seem to get strawberry juice on the counter every time I cut strawberries.
Shabbat fridges are a ripoff. They put in a switch to turn off the light; you can do the same thing with any fridge by unscrewing the bulb a little beforehand. The compressor timer is an invitation to food freezing or spoiling, since it overrides the temperature control. Just get a normal fridge and unscrew the bulb when needed.
Then again, a modern fridge will have an phosphorescent or LED bulb anyway, which can not in any way shape or form be considered a fire. Neither can turning the compressor on and off.
With all CYLOR caveats, in general grantie and similar stone countertops can be kashered by cleaning with bleach or similar cleanser, then pouring boiling water over them. I prefer that to covering by a mile - peasch is when I do a lot of heavy-duty cooking and I want a great surface to work on, not some jury-rigged covering.
ditto Larry on shabbat mode for ovens. I find warming drawers to be pointless, I just put my shabbat mode oven on 175 degrees. Depending on your kashering standards for dishwashers, you may want to get dishwashers with stainless steel racks, since those are more liekly to be kahserable. Make sure your dishawshers come with good timer features so you can set it before shabbat to take care of friday night's dishes.
I've been unscrewing the fridge bulb for years.
"The compressor timer is an invitation to food freezing or spoiling, since it overrides the temperature control." Good point. Maybe I should reconsider the "Shabbat" fridge, when our current refrigerator needs to be replaced--that's about the only thing we *won't* be buying at this time.
Z-Dog, thanks for the "stainless-steel racks" tip. I should have thought of that, and will keep it in mind when dishwasher-shopping.
if you unscrew the fridge bulb in new fridges, which are no longer incandescent bulbs, you run the risk of voiding the warranty on the fridge. Also, most fridges have LED displays (temperature, primarily) that turn on when you open the door. Shabbat mode is not a rip off but a necessity with most modern fridges.
Anon., thanks for the info. I haven't bought a new fridge in years, and had no idea.
I find a warming drawer occasionally useful. We use it when we have a ton of people over (generally 50+), it's a very specialty use item.
I think that the most important thing in a Kosher kitchen is LOTS of cabinets, depending on your cooking style. You can never have enough storage in a kosher kitchen.
Shabbat Mode oven is nice... it can keep food warm through lunch if you so desire, and it's very useful for cooking on Yom Tov.
I'm just going to repeat that none of the rulings concerned with electricity for things like lights and displays have any basis in anything. Electricity =/= fire unless you are using it to cook or for electric heating (hence phosphorescent and LED bulbs get around the very loose argument about the incidental heating from iridescent bulbs). Don't waste money just so a dumb display won't turn on.
Physicist: You might want to read up on the various arguments concerning the use of electricity on Shabbat. There are other reasons besides electricity = fire for it to be banned. If Shira is comfortable following the C teshuvot which allow for a limited use of electricity on Shabbat that is fine, but there exist C rabbis who also hold that electricity is forbidden.
I have a "two drawer" Fisher Paykel dishwasher (one for meat and one for dairy) and I haven't been very happy with it. It was very high maintenance, and one of the drawers stopped functioning within 7 years of purchasing it. The repairman we called to look it over said the cost of fixing the one drawer was about 80% of the cost of buying a new double dishwasher. He urged us to do the latter since "the reliability has really improved the last few years." Since the guy who installed the dishwasher told us "You picked the right time to buy one of these - the reliability has really improved in the last few years." we decided to keep the existing dishwasher and wash half our dishes by hand. In any event, a double drawer dishwasher costs more than two dishwashers, so if you have the space and the funding, IMHO you are better off with 2 dishwashers than a double drawer model.
@thePhysicist. Ok, so you say it's dumb. I don't necessarily disagree. But we're not talking physics, we're talking halacha. And halacha doesn't say "it's dumb." It says "you can't do it." So, yeah, if she wants to avoid violating halacha, you have to get a sabbath mode refrigerator. It's not about violating the laws of physics.
Physicist, here's a snippet from the comments to my Methinks I’ll listen to our son indicating that the concern that electricity = fire is not the main reason for prohibiting its use on Shabbat:
Maya Resnikoff [a Conservative rabbi] said...
Since electricity flows from a source by ceasing to be cut off (as I've been told) rather than kindling a new fire, as it were, using electricity on Yom Tov is probably the most acceptable to traditional understandings of halakha of any "non-Orthodox" p'sak [rabbinic ruling on a matter of halachah/Jewish religious law].
Wed Mar 13, 05:21:00 PM 2013
Miami Al [Modern Orthodox] said...
My understanding is that electricity on Yom Tov was normative until about 40 years ago.
The three possible reasons for prohiting electricity are:
1. Fire
2. Cooking
3. Completion of something began before Shabbat/Yom Tov
Fire is clearly wrong and normally not given as the reason any more. However, many Conservative Jews give that as the reason to debunk it, I've never heard an Orthodox source refer to electricity as fire.
Cooking is the most legitimate one, because Rambam specifically referred to heating a metal until it glows as cooking. An incandescent lightbulb, the original use of electricity, is absolutely heating a metal until it glows. Whether that should expand to all electricity is another question. The prohibition on cooking does NOT apply on Yom Tov.
Completing Something incomplete. This is the normative one normally given. It's logically problematic, because a switch is really a door (in fact, electrical schematics show them as a gate/door). They are designed to open/close. In fact, in a push button switch, when you release your finger, it's re-opened, so it's not really closed.
I'm not convinced that there is much of an actual problem with electricity, but the avoidance of it has become the primary "marker" of contemporary observance."
Anon., it's a matter of the logic of halachah. If the argument is that Completing Something that's Incomplete is assur/forbidden, but the use of electricity doesn't actually involved Completing Something that's Incomplete, your argument loses its force. Then you may be left with only Miami Al's argument that "the avoidance of it [the use of electricity on Shabbat and Yom Tov] has become the primary "marker" of contemporary observance." That may suffice for many observant Jews. The jury is still out on whether it's enough of a reason for me to risk having my food spoil in a refrigerator set to so-called "Sabbath/Shabbat" mode (really "Major Holiday/Yom Tov") mode. On the other hand, if there's no health or safety problem caused by using an oven set to Yom Tov mode such that the usual displays won't light up like a Christmas tree whenever I open the oven door, I'd certainly prefer to buy an oven with a Yom Tov mode feature.
" . . . you are better off with 2 dishwashers than a double drawer model."
Larry, where do you think we live?! It's a NYC-sized apartment, or, as our son would say, a "tuna can." We're lucky we have room for *one* dishwasher, much less two! :)
You wrote: "Anon., it's a matter of the logic of halachah. If the argument is that Completing Something that's Incomplete is assur/forbidden, but the use of electricity doesn't actually involved Completing Something that's Incomplete, your argument loses its force. Then you may be left with only Miami Al's argument that "the avoidance of it [the use of electricity on Shabbat and Yom Tov] has become the primary "marker" of contemporary observance." That may suffice for many observant Jews. The jury is still out on whether it's enough of a reason for me to risk having my food spoil in a refrigerator set to so-called "Sabbath/Shabbat" mode (really "Major Holiday/Yom Tov") mode."
No, you don't get it. It may not be logical. But it is halacha. The halachic reality is not always the same as physical reality and neither you nor your son get to decide what is "real" in the halachic reality. Or, you can, but then I wouldn't bother spending the money on any other shabbat mode item, because it's a waste of money in your case. It's like buying kosher meat for your cheeseburger (yes, I'm employing hyperbole, don't bother trying to pick it apart).
And food spoilage? Give me a break. I've been using a shabbat mode fridge for 5 years and it neither freezes my food nor causes it to spoil.
" I've been using a shabbat mode fridge for 5 years and it neither freezes my food nor causes it to spoil."
Anon., thanks for that information, which is very helpful.
I like turkey and cheese sandwiches. You can't boil something in it's mother's milk if the species doesn't give milk to begin with.
Nu, Physicist, you're gonna make Anon.'s case for him? Okay, okay, so logic and halachah don't always mix. Sigh.
"I like turkey and cheese sandwiches. You can't boil something in it's mother's milk if the species doesn't give milk to begin with."
And that's why your opinion on halachic matters is of little relevance. And by little, I mean none.
Again, if you're in the halachic system, you accept halachic reality. If you're not in the system, your opinion on such matters doesn't matter.
As a friend points out, he's not sure why you can't just turn on an electric range (with a clock on it) on Yom Tov, you're not creating a new fire, you're turning a knob and the "electricty/fire" in the range is redirected.
For example, normative practice permits turning up/down (but not on/off) on a cooktop on Yom Tov (especially if the cooktop has an indicator that it is heating up, you turn up when the light is on, down when the light is off).
Electricity was banned on Shabbat/Yom Tov, reasons were given, they aren't all that compelling, nor can it be a new prohibition since modern Rabbanim lack the authority to create a new one, so it has to be linked to something.
Fire was a concern in the early days of electricity because of sparks. Cooking was held next (heating a metal until it glows). The majority opinion seems to be that incandescent lightbulbs are creating a "flame" of sorts because the heated metal gives off light and heat... while this is physically weak, it's also largely irrelevant since incadescent lightbulbs are basically illegal to manufacture and will be phased out in the next few years. :)
The most common reason for general electricity given is the completing something incomplete, which was disputed heavily by Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.
That said, this is academic. Standard Orthodox Jewish practice is to not activate them. Incandescent lightbulbs are considered a biblical violation, other appliances are likely a Rabbinic violation at most, and a Minhag at least.
Regarding fridges... if you can affordably get (and fit) a kosher-mode one, sure, why not. When we did our Kitchen, they didn't come in the sizes that fit. We tape out button over, so it doesn't detect the door opening/closing, this probably isn't the greatest thing for the fridge motor, but it works for us, and if it shrinks the lifespan of the fridge by 15%, call it the cost of being Shomer Shabbos. I have eaten in Rabbis' homes where they remove the lightbulb from their fridge and just open and close it as normal. Sure, the temperature LEDs go on and off, but that's the incidental action, the intentional one is getting the food out.
Some Rabbinic authorities permit putting food in/out of the warming drawer on Shabbat, others prohibit it, I forget which, the OU or the Star K permitted, but it wasn't someone out of the mainstream.
That said, you violate all sorts of FDA food safety guidelines attempting to heat food up in there (spends LOTS of time in the danger zone) When we served a lot of food that needed to be heated up, we heated it on the Plata and moved it to the warming drawer to keep warm.
It's also great for summer BBQs as the grilled food moves in to stay warm. That said, we usually just use the more convenience oven at a low temperature.
I don't mind having the warming drawer, but given the costs of it, I wouldn't spend the money again.
Dual dishwashers is great, I wouldn't go back to one. Nobody I knows that has the "two drawer" approach is happy with it. Back in my apartment living days, we had an 18" dishwasher and followed the Sephardic practice (based on Ashkenazi rulings by Moshe Feinstein, FYI) that you should avoid washing milk and meat at the same time, but you can use for both by running a rinse cycle between it to get the particles out. If you can find space for two 18" dishwashers, only 12" more of counter space than a standard 24" dishwasher, I'd suggest doing it.
You could also get a counter top dishwasher.
Having two dishwashers is absolutely amazing for speeding up cleanup, especially after Shabbat. We also have all glass serving stuff, so anything with a parve item on it can be put in either dishwasher for cleanup, which helps as well.
But while Anonymous could use brushing up on the halachic requirements to conduct oneself with proper manners, he's right, either you exist in the Orthodox halachic system (which uses improper physics), or you don't. While a compelling argument can be made that the Talmudic Rabbis used the best science available and we should as well, there doesn't seem to be an interest in revisiting things made based on prior understandings that have been changed.
That said, the death of the print world and the rise of e-books is going to create a new reality for Rabbinic Judaism, how it handles it will determine the future of Orthodoxy.
Miami Al, assuming that I measured correctly, we have 23 and a half inches for a dishwasher, and not an inch more. As for a counter-top dishwasher, what counter-top? The counter-top between the sink and the stove is about 30 inches wide, and the counter-top from the stove to the door is another 53 inches. That's all there is, there ain't no mo. We barely have room for a dish drainboard, cutting board, urn and microwave, much less a counter-top dishwasher.
Re e-readers, one person I know said that any people that's still writing its most sacred text by hand on parchment is not going to stop printing books on paper any time soon. :) That said, the ability to carry both Talmuds on a gadget in one's pocket may give the rabbis something to think about.
Sooner or later it will become illegal to produce paper because the trees are needed for environmental damage mitigation (carbon sequestration). If the law of the land is the law and the law says you use e-books or you don't read, what do you do?
Physicist, right you are, and so say the rabbis: "Dina medina dina, the law of the land is the law." It's up to *you* folks--scientists, technologists, engineers and mathematicians--to figure out how to make this work. I'm too tired to set up a link, so I'll give you the honor of doing an internet search for "Tzomet Institute.
Here you go: Tzomet Institute
Nu, is anyone still commenting on my kitchen query? For example, are there any particular brands of appliances with which you have experience that you would recommend?
We're not in the market for a fridge at the moment, but speaking of Tzomet, here's their ruling anyway: Refrigerators on Shabbat.
More from Tzomet: re (1) kashering “sili-quart and sili-granite” for Pesach (no answer yet) and (2) putting meat and dairy dishes in the same dishwasher (at different times, of course)--they're not crazy about the idea.
"Sooner or later it will become illegal to produce paper because the trees are needed for environmental damage mitigation (carbon sequestration). If the law of the land is the law and the law says you use e-books or you don't read, what do you do?"
Wow, horse hooey. First off, they'll come up with ways of making paper from other substances, or just recycle existing materials, second, notwithstanding Shira's incorrect statement (it's dina d'malchuta dina) that applies to civil law, not religious observance. If the law of the land said you can't circumcise, you still do a brit mila and suffer the consequences. The level of ignorance in this post is astounding, not least of which is caused by taking someone who has stated that they don't give a fig about halacha seriously.
Nobody (seriously) thinks that paper will be illegal. That said, do you have any clue what is involved in industrial printing? You can't run siddurim off an office laser printer without the costs being astronomical. The growth of inexpensive printings has meant that in a few centuries we've gone from communities lacking a full copy of Shas to most Orthodox homes have one on a book shelf.
As E-books take over, and the printing of books declines, their simply won't be affordable mass production of books. The equipment is HUGE and expensive.
Will books go away? Of course not. But a decline in books will result in a decline in the manufacturing of printing/binding machines, which will cause the costs of the now specialty equipment to soar and the costs of publications will soar.
The Orthodox Jewish community is simply not large enough to sustain modern manufacturing of books, you'll drop to much more expensive equipment and costs will skyrocket.
When e-readers drop in price to the < $20 range, you'll be in a position to make a "Kosher E-reader" for < $30 that would have Internet and other distractions removed.
Look, even if hitting a button is a "completion" issue, an always on touch screen is another matter. It will require some Rabbinic "heroics," but I find this a solvable problem.
The growth of knowledge in the last 4 centuries has been astounding, and shows no signs of decline. I would hope that Jews will continue to be at the forefront of the progression of knowledge instead of being hidebound.
We still hand scribe things for ritual purposes, but we use modern technology for everything else. I find the ability to duplicate, for free, as many copies of the Talmud an astounding ability to put Jewish knowledge in the hands of everyone.
In 50 years, today's teenagers, for whom txting their friends is as natural as biking to a friend's house was two generations ago will be laughing at the idea that their religious studies used to require walls of books, while their grand children read from a simple hologram device.
I find the Whirlpool family of appliances great. The Kitchen-aid line has some nice upgrades, but the lower end ones are fine. The Star K appliance guide was critical when we renovated our Kitchen.
Regarding the Dishwasher, I highly recommend getting a basic 18" dishwasher and deciding how you're going to use it, instead of mucking around with the very expensive double drawers. Without seeing your Kitchen, I don't know beyond that, but if you can re-arrange the kitchen somehow to get two dishwashers as well as a double sink, you'll find your kashrut much more pleasant.
In terms of what is acceptable or not with regard to the fridge. You really have two things to worry about, your conscious and your community standards. Since you're the most observant in your community and group of friends, I wouldn't worry too much. I mean, Anonymous won't pick a screen name, let alone interact with you beyond insults... he hasn't refuted anything on the thread, just been a jerk.
I've never had food spoil over a 3 day Yom Tov/Shabbat combination with the sensor taped over (which is really a bad solution) other than not letting the kids hold the door open to contemplate what they want. I can't imagine it would spoil in a Shabbat mode fridge.
I mean, why are you doing this? You're not fixing the house up to sell to a Orthodox family. You're not outside the norms of your community. If it's time to upgrade, decide of the Shabbat mode features are valuable to you or not. I like Shabbat mode on the oven, plenty of my friends don't have it and get along just fine. We use it on Yom Tov, it's nice, particularly when it's Yom Tov Sheini and we have 50 people over for lunch. OTOH, sometimes we set the ovens to 175 and Shabbat mode them and never touch them for two days. Still, its nice to have the option to cook up a real meal with an oven.
Anon., I don't make this stuff up--I've heard *both* "dina d'malchuta dina" *and* "dina d'medina dina."
" . . . that applies to civil law, not religious observance." Is that necessarily always the case?
"The level of ignorance in this post is astounding, not least of which is caused by taking someone who has stated that they don't give a fig about halacha seriously."
Anon., the level of your own lack of derech aretz/common courtesy in your comments is *also* astounding, given that you portray yourself as someone who *does* take halacha seriously. Do not the rabbis say, "Derech eretz kadma l'Torah/ Common courtesy comes before Torah"? For openers, I don't appreciate the disrespectful attitude you've shown toward both me and my commenters. Second, really, was it necessary for you to use the phrase "horse hooey?" I've always prided myself in running a respectful blog, and would appreciate it if you would be more civil in your attitude and in your choice of language.
"In 50 years, today's teenagers, for whom txting their friends is as natural as biking to a friend's house was two generations ago will be laughing at the idea that their religious studies used to require walls of books, while their grand children read from a simple hologram device."
On a related topic, Miami Al, you might be interested in my theory on the pre-Beis-Yaakov beginning of Jewish women’s increasing Jewish literacy.
Recently did a kitchen with all the "kosher" necessities (in part since that made sense for resale value). Now having lived with it for a year, skip granite and spend a small part of the savings on 1/8 inch thick plexiglass cut to size to cover for pesach (that is what we had before the new kitchen).
If you replace range, make sure that electronic ignition is all the way after high so you can light from a flame on Yom Tov.
Meanwhile, back to the subject at hand: Miami Al, thanks for the Whirlpool and Kitchen Aid recommendations. You'll be happy to know that even Ms. Low-Tech here has managed to figure out how to "bookmark" the Star-K Certified Appliances Guide on my smartphone so that I can take it with me. :)
"I highly recommend getting a basic 18" dishwasher and deciding how you're going to use it." I'm thinking of getting just the one dishwasher but going for steel racks and running an empty dishwasher on full cycle between milk and meat. That's probably kosher enough for us and most of our friends. For the rest, well, that's why HaShem give us the brains to invent paper plates and plastic tableware. :)
" . . . if you can re-arrange the kitchen somehow to get two dishwashers as well as a double sink, . . ."
Not unless you buy us a house. :) Seriously, Miami Al, this is a NYC apartment. If you think we have room for any of the above, you have delusions of the grandeur of our available space. If we put in so much as a double sink, we'd lose the spot where we park our cutting board!
"I've never had food spoil over a 3 day Yom Tov/Shabbat combination with the sensor taped over (which is really a bad solution) other than not letting the kids hold the door open to contemplate what they want. I can't imagine it would spoil in a Shabbat mode fridge."
That's good to know.
Re the "Sabbath-mode" oven, the main attraction is the ability to use a timer to turn the darned thing off when we definitely won't be using it, such as overnight, as well as most of the morning, while we're at shul. We're gettin' awfully tired of living in a "hot box" every time there's a two-day Yom Tov.
" . . . skip granite and spend a small part of the savings on 1/8 inch thick plexiglass cut to size to cover for pesach (that is what we had before the new kitchen)."
We're not such gourmet cooks that we'd have trouble working with foil-covered counters (as we do now), if we can't figure out how to kasher the granite for Pesach. But we are concerned about using material that's high enough in quality that it will be long-lasting. Our current countertops have burn marks (from the previous owner) and cracks, and stain easily.
I've reconsidered Larry Lennhoff's recommendation to use silestone, too. Since yours truly is asthmatic and has close family and friends with serious allergies and/or chemical-sensitivity problems, I think we'd be wise to stick to materials that are as close to 100% natural as possible while still being stain-resistant. I'm trying to avoid, insofar as possible, materials that are likely to "off-gas" (release chemicals, particularly immediately after installation). I haven't forgotten my late aunt's complaint that her new carpeting made her sick for months, not to mention my own dubious experience with our current mattress, which stunk for ages.
We have a tea kettle and we pour it over the granite/marble counters with boiling hot water to kasher for Pesach. We have a lot of counters, so it takes a while, but no way in hell we're spending 5 days of Shabbat/Yom Tov with all the entertaining we do with foil counters.
Others I know pour water on the counters and go over them with an iron.
I won't do that, because water and electricity do not mix, but it is a perfectly halachicaly valid approach, even if I consider it a candidate for a Darwin Award.
Plexiglass seems cost effective, but also means storing it year round. Might be reasonable in an apartment with a small kitchen and a storage facility. I also have something on the order of 100+ square feet of granite/marble between my kitchen and serving spaces.
We used to pour boiling water on our counters. I don't remember why we stopped. Maybe it was because someone told us that formica can't be kashered. But it might be worth even the mess that all that water makes of the kitchen floor, just to avoid having to find a storage spot for countertop-sized sheets of plexiglass.
The trick is having towels ready as you go, controls he mess. You end up with a lot of wet towels, but don't have water everywhere.
Good idea. Should have thought of it myself. Thanks, Miami Al!
Missed this one:
"If you replace range, make sure that electronic ignition is all the way after high so you can light from a flame on Yom Tov."
Thanks for the tip, Anon.!
We use a GE Profile oven and are happy with it. As mentioned, my Mom has a superior model that uses a dial instead of electronic controls to set the temperature. Bli Neder I will ask her for the model #.
You said:
Re the "Sabbath-mode" oven, the main attraction is the ability to use a timer to turn the darned thing off when we definitely won't be using it, such as overnight, as well as most of the morning, while we're at shul.
It is permitted to transfer a flame, and thus to raise (and lower, as long as it is being done for some purpose other than to save money on fuel(*)) the temperature, but you can't ignite a new fire or extinguish one on Yom Tov.
Most contemporary ovens that I know of no longer use a pilot light, but use electronic ignition instead. Certainly my oven's Shabbat mode lets me say 'go off after 6 hours' but there is no way to turn it back on afterwards without doing something forbidden.
It really should be "dina de-malkhuta dina". The phrase "dina de-medina dina" does not appear in the rabbinic literature even once, according to a search that I just ran on the Bar-Ilan Respona Project (plus it should really have been "dina de-medinta dina"). If somebody told you this is the line, then somebody has been telling you the wrong thing.
It seems to me that, as somebody who occasionally reads, but almost never comments here, that you have a recurrent problem with misunderstanding Hebrew and Aramaic terminology. In this case, it could have been remedied by the use of Google, which will promptly inform you that there is no "dina de-medina dina" line (except, apparently, as an attempt to alter "dina de-malkhuta dina" to fit the times, but as I noted above, this formulation would be grammatically incorrect. Grrrrr). Have you thought of investing in a Frank or Melamed dictionary? They'd be really helpful for you, I think.
It really should be "dina de-malkhuta dina". The phrase "dina de-medina dina" does not appear in the rabbinic literature even once, according to a search that I just ran on the Bar-Ilan Respona Project (plus it should really have been "dina de-medinta dina"). If somebody told you this is the line, then somebody has been telling you the wrong thing.
It seems to me that, as somebody who occasionally reads, but almost never comments here, that you have a recurrent problem with misunderstanding Hebrew and Aramaic terminology. In this case, it could have been remedied by the use of Google, which will promptly inform you that there is no "dina de-medina dina" line (except, apparently, as an attempt to alter "dina de-malkhuta dina" to fit the times, but as I noted above, this formulation would be grammatically incorrect. Grrrrr). Have you thought of investing in a Frank or Melamed dictionary? They'd be really helpful for you, I think.
Sorry, this was just a classic case of "sheh-eino yodeia lish'ol/one who doesn't know to ask"--if I'd known that there was a question, I would have looked up the answer. Here goes:
”Dina d’medina dina.”
”Dina d’malchuta dina.”
Even my spelling was incorrect--I missed the "d'". Sigh.
"It seems to me that, as somebody who occasionally reads, but almost never comments here, that you have a recurrent problem with misunderstanding Hebrew and Aramaic terminology." That's probably true. Thanks for the dictionary recommendation, but I had no luck trying to "Google" the Frank or Melamed dictionaries. Are they for modern Israel Hebrew, Biblical Hebrew, and/or Talmudic/Rabbinic, er, Hebrew(?)/Aramaic(?)? Is this something I could pick up at my friendly not-so-local Judaica store, or do I need to look online or elsewhere?
Thank you for being one of my many online teachers. As a Hebrew School grad, I'm still playing "catch-up" at 64, and have learned a lot from my commenters and from reading other blogs. I really should take an old suggestion from a commenter (or two . . .) and enroll in some formal Jewish study program(s), but I haven't yet found the time, and, to be honest, the will--my husband is the studious one, and is looking forward to engaging in more serious Jewish learning after his retirement.
Larry Lennhoff said, "Most contemporary ovens that I know of no longer use a pilot light, but use electronic ignition instead. Certainly my oven's Shabbat mode lets me say 'go off after 6 hours' but there is no way to turn it back on afterwards without doing something forbidden."
Doesn't "Sabbath mode" use a timer? We've been turning lights off and back on with timers on Shabbat/Sabbath and Yom Tov/major holiday for years. Is there a halachic reason why we can't use a Sabbath-mode timer to turn the oven back on after the timer has turned it off?
I can't speak for all Shabbat mode ovens, but ours can be left on over all of Shabbat or else it can be made to turn off some number of hours after the timer is set, but there is no way to turn it back on while staying in Shabbat mode.
"Is there a halachic reason why we can't use a Sabbath-mode timer to turn the oven back on after the timer has turned it off?"
On Yom Tov, probably not...
That said, no such feature exists, so it's an academic question.
Major bummer, dude. That's exactly what we were hoping a "Sabbath-mode" oven would do. :( So the only thing it's good for is turning off the oven after the last Yom Tov lunch? We're still going to have to live with an overheated apartment for two nights straight?
What it is good for is letting you turn the heat to 175 until you are ready to cook your Yom Tov meal, then turn it up to 350, and back down again to 175 just before you take the food out of the oven.
We can do that *without* a Sabbath-mode oven--as far as I know, it's permissible to turn a gas oven's temperature up or down, but not to turn the oven on or off. So the only advantage of a Sabbath-mode oven is that it would enable us to turn off the oven before the end of Yom Tov without violating halachah/Jewish religious law?
Our oven has electronic controls so we can't turn the temperature up and down without being in Shabbat mode - otherwise the LED display changes to show the new temperature we set it to.
Oy. So the trick is to avoid getting an oven with electronic controls, assuming that that's possible nowadays. Maybe older is easier, when it comes to using an oven on Yom Tov.
Here is something I found when looking for something else entirely Designing a kosher kitchen. Hope it helps.
Larry, thanks for that link! The one thing I figured out on my own was that the new cabinets, unlike our current ones, should go all the way to the ceiling, as the Kosher Maven suggested.
"water and electricity don't mix"
We do iron our countertops to kasher them for Pesach. Electric irons are designed to be used around water - steam irons have a receptacle for water, and even on non-steam mode, I use the iron to iron damp clothes. Plus, we have GCFI outlets, which should be in every kitchen.
" . . . we have GCFI outlets, which should be in every kitchen."
Tesyaa, thanks for the GFCI outlet reminder. I certainly hope we can all agree on the importance of safety.
In a small kitchen, it's fine. Though a GFCI outlet is helpful, it's not a total failsafe... a GFCI circuit would be better, but that's an extremely expensive retrofit. Only new construction gets GFCI circuits (and arc fault in bedrooms).
In my large kitchen and other serving areas, we'd need an extension cord on the iron, and I'm concerned with the water where the iron connects to the extension cord.
Again, no halachic problem with it, I just personally find it dangerous and spend the extra 30 minutes to use the tea kettle instead.
Miami Al and Tesyaa, on the one hand, the boiling-water method might be safer, provided that I can manage not to boil *myself* in the process. (Been there, done that, and had the 2nd-degree burns to prove it--trying never to do it again.) On the other hand, our kitchen is small enough that we might not need to use an extension cord to iron our counter-tops. We'll consider both methods, and try to determine which would be safer, given the size of our kitchen and my past history of bad luck with boiling-hot water.
Boiling water is a burn hazard and can also damage certain types of cabinetry. On the "Mother in Israel" blog several years ago, there was a discussion about how in Israel contractors are careful to install countertops perfectly level so that water pools but does not drip. Given that my counters are new but the rest of the kitchen isn't, my old cabinets are not perfectly level and water can't be counted on not to spill all over.
I've certainly thought about how careful we need to be in order to avoid getting burned, but I hadn't thought about possible damage to our new kitchen cabinets. I'll suggest to my husband that we take ironing into consideration as an alternative kashering method that might be safer in our small kitchen, in which we wouldn't need an extension cord to iron the counters. Thanks for the tip, Tesyaa.
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